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Post by Paul A. Kaiser on Nov 5, 2008 13:52:31 GMT -5
A new member has proposed this question and I thought it would be nice to open up the discussion and hear some of you thoughts in regards to this topic. This will no doubt lead to some questions regarding Man's condition at birth, abortion, and the age of accountability. Looking forward to tlhe discussion.
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Post by muleslax on Nov 5, 2008 17:49:34 GMT -5
I can't remember exactly what I asked, but it had to do with Hell's Best Kept Secret claiming that the path to hell is absence of the knowledge of sin. Wouldn't that mean, considering babies have no knowledge of what is right and wrong, that they would go to hell if they died at a young age or because of an abortion. Also, I was wondering what God thought about abortions?
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rsanford
New Member
Wait....what?
Posts: 15
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Post by rsanford on Nov 6, 2008 1:43:01 GMT -5
One thing that I have read that I think applies well here is in Deut. 1:39 "Moreover, your little ones whom you said would become a prey, and your children who at this time cannot discern between good and evil, they shall enter Canaan, and to them I will give it and they shall possess it." It seems to me that if the children who are too young to tell good from evil are not held accountable for their elders dissobeying of God at that time are still given the great land, then the same logic applies to now and heaven. Children and infants who are too young to know, contiously, that what they are doing is wrong, to understand what sin is and be able to understand the concept of repentence, they are not held accountable for it. I believe that man, at birth DOES have sin, but sinse at that time he is physically incapable of repentance, he is not held accountable. and that any "age of accountability" is different from person to person, as we are all individuals. I believe that one is held accountable for their sins, and original sin, at the moment that they are able to understand what sin and repentance is.
As for the abortion topic you threw in, for me it follows thus: a Cell in the womb, at conecption, has all 100% of the genetic code for a fully individual human being. It doesnt look like a human, but to make somehting look human you just add a bunch more cells. all containing the same information, Just different informatioon is more pronounced in each one. Since said cell is human, and abortion removes the cells/embryo thus killing it. Abortion kills a fully individual human. And since the killing is for personal reasons or comfort, then I consider it under the catalague of murder.
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Post by Calvins_Kid on Nov 6, 2008 3:30:02 GMT -5
Hi Sibs!
Well.. I have been trying to look at this issue now for months... and months... There seems to be plenty of people with all sorts of titbits of information and I don't like that... I am looking for a Systematic approach to the subject.
First a note to rsanford: >>>but sinse at that time he is physically incapable >>>of repentance, he is not held accountable ================================================================= I disagree with you bro... Your argument is predicated upon the presupposition that inability negligates responsibility... Which if you are a Calvinist you will understand to be false: The unregenerate are dead in their sins... they are UNABLE to come to repentance... however at the same time they are RESPONSIBLE to come to repentance... Lets just repeat that: they are UNABLE and RESPONSIBLE... (I'm not shouting dear brother.. just boldalizing)... =) <<<You said that "sinse at that time he is physically incapable of repentance, he is not held accountable" ... I disagree... Even if he were physically capable of repentance he would not be Spiritually capable of repentance... <<< Lemmo know where I'm wrong.. =) <<< Just a note on abortion to rsanford: AMEN BROTHER!!!!
THe other day I found an old AH Strong's Systematic Theology... It's good.. but the reasoning it follows to say that babies who die real young will enter Heaven I think is VERY lacking.
1. He points out that apart from repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ no one will be saved... to which I say amen! 2. He says that babies are of relative innocence... and more willing to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ... Which I can't relate to as I believe in total depravity and believe that regeneration precedes faith... which means that no matter how willing they are to believe in a childish sense (please excuse that heretical sentence "willing to believe" - said of an unregenerate)... they are unable... and un-willing ========================= So I do not believe that babies go to hell or that they go to heaven... rather I believe that I do not know.
Here's some thoughts though: 1. Salvation goes ::: a. Regeneration b. Repentance and Faith 2. God is Sovereign
So here's the idea: Since God is sovereign and Salvation is by faith alone in this life-time alone;
IE: 1. God's gonna save whom he will when he will 2. God saves by "Regen. Repen. Faith" I really hope that a tiny part of this... however small made some sense.. =)
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Post by Ryan Dozier on Nov 6, 2008 11:56:13 GMT -5
I agree Calvinskid. If all babies go to heaven abortion is the greatest means to that end.
However, Biblically God calls His people to Himself (John 6) and He looses none. Also, interesting to note how John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit in the womb.
I will post more satisfactory when I have time.
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Post by muleslax on Nov 6, 2008 18:53:03 GMT -5
...So what's the answer? One person's telling me no, another says yes?
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Post by Ryan Dozier on Nov 7, 2008 1:00:07 GMT -5
Basically ALL babies do not go to Heaven when they die because this view is not found in the Bible.
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Post by muleslax on Nov 7, 2008 1:02:43 GMT -5
So, God judges on if they would've been true to him or not should they have lived and based upon that sends them to either hell or Heaven?
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Post by Ryan Dozier on Nov 7, 2008 1:09:44 GMT -5
Some go to Heaven and some go to Hell according to God's election. Read Romans Chapter Nine on election.
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Post by muleslax on Nov 7, 2008 1:10:21 GMT -5
Alright, but not now it's late.
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Post by muleslax on Nov 7, 2008 1:11:20 GMT -5
What time does your talk show start in Central Time zone.
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Post by Ryan Dozier on Nov 7, 2008 1:20:56 GMT -5
I am not sure. It should tell on Blogtalkradio.com as soon as you sign up for free.
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Post by Calvins_Kid on Nov 7, 2008 10:23:37 GMT -5
Can we all agree:
-----+ Salvation to those who repent and believe rightly -----++ This repentance and faith is post regeneration -----+++ Regeneration is an act of God -----++ Repentance and faith is of God -----+ Only the elect are regenerated unto repentance and faith -----++ This happens at a time that God chooses
Does anyone have any comment... I'm trying to build something up for the topic =)
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Post by muleslax on Nov 8, 2008 0:20:28 GMT -5
Yes!
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Post by Paul A. Kaiser on Nov 8, 2008 3:56:28 GMT -5
Also, interesting to note how John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit in the womb. Brother RC, One must develop an argument before stating the conclusion, you show your hand to quickly and thus it is misunderstood. Let me elaborate.... Muleslax: Most people will argue from silence on the position of infants and death. Many will just say they all go to heaven by default because of innocence and not being able to respond. Thus the unbiblical position known as the "age of accountability". This states that when someone reaches a certain age they will all of a sudden become responsible for their actions (SIN). However if you hold to the historic biblical doctrine of Original Sin ( that men are fallen and guilty in Adam), like Calvins Kid pointed out, you would be highly inconsistent in your theology. If we are guilty at birth then we are not innocent and one way of proving that is this: Do infants die? Is the reason they die because the are sinners (from birth)? The very fact that infants die prove that they are sinners... If not death would pass them by until they were "accountable" and have earned the wages of their SIN. Then this brings about the problem with abortion that Brother RC brought up. I will start by asking a few questions: 1) Do you believe that abortion is wrong? If yes, why is it wrong? 2) Do all aborted babies go to heaven? If they do, should we try to prohibit abortion in light of this Scripture? Would it not be gain for an infant to die and be ushered into the presence of Christ rather than to live in this sinful world and have the potential opportunity to perish in his or her sins and be cast into an eternal Hell? Now, you may say we are not to Kill, we are made in the image of God, infants have done neither good or bad. All of these still don't deal with original sin nor the "to die is gain". You see in infants are guilty of sin (they die) and they die they are still guilty - even as infants. So to infer or insist that all babies go to heaven is counter to what Scripture teaches. Calvins Kid: I would refer to the Order of Salvation (Ordo Salutis - Calvinstic View) from Grudem's Systamatic Theology (Brother RC can look up the page since he has my copy ) Election (God) Outward and Effectual Call (God) Regeneration (God) Conversion - (faith and repentance) (God and man) Justification (God) Sanctification (God and man) Perserverance (God and man) So, I would say there are various aspects in the process of salvation that man is active in. specifically pt 4 Conversion - God Grants faith but he does not believe or repent for us - man freely does this after being granted the ability to do so and by God's grace we are converted. Looking forward to seeing how you develop this thread!
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