The Mind of a Challenger Approaches!

[rsanford]

I answered Gods call to me in the summer of 2006. Having spent the majority of my life ignoring (and sometimes even laughing at) the Lord has allowed me the insight into the though process of unbelievers firsthand. As such, I am able to challenge myself from the mindset of a complete unbeliever and explore my faith and current levels of understanding I have. For the most part, I can refute said challenges by my understanding of some Scripture and Gods Will, or learn the answers through various teachers. But sometimes, even though I know WHY something is so, I do not know the Scripture to back it up. So I have decided to open this little nugget of a thread in hopes you fine intelligent gentlemen/women can aid in mine quest.
I was debating for a while whether or not to open separate threads for separate questions, but figured since it is mostly just asking for Scriptural references it should be ok to have multiple questions in this one thread. If I was mistaken then you mods can just use your administrative powers to make everything pretty and neat.
I'm basically asking for any Scripture to back up my thought, or, if my thought is wrong, what is the Truth as based on Scripture?

Well I've blathered on long enough, Onto the Questions~!
First up: Ghosts! @.@
I know that once a person dies they are ether in Heaven or Hell, not just shuffling about here on earth and that such "spiritual encounters" are the works of demons supporting a false thought. Or for follows of psychics like Sylvia Brown, thinking the spirits are people from heaven helping our spirit guides lead us on our life paths that god has set for us.
Now, What scripture is there that can help me explain truths to people who believe in ghosts? Please and thank you! =D

Second: Similar to the first~ Aliens! (no, not the awesome movie.)
Similar to the first, Demons making people believe things to draw them further from the Lord, and again miss Sylvia Brown who says they are here and living among us and some people ARE aliens they just don't know it except subcontiously (I bring her up much cuz sadly my mother watches her on TV and i'm used to hearing her ideas)
What Scripture helps to show such things just aren't right? One thing I have been wondering specifically is IS there any Scripture specifically stating we are the only created beings God made?

Lets see... Ahh yes!
Thirdly: Something I've thought up recently but keep forgetting the Scripture relative to the answer:
It is impossible for any man to actually follow all of the Ten Commandments, He could never lie, never steal, all of the things up to: Follow the lord with all his heart. Which in another part I cannot recall specifically the Bible says it is impossible for man to reach for the Lord.
So the question is this: Why does God set man Laws that God, In His infinite knowledge, knows man is unable to follow?

Thank you for spending your free time wasting it on this rather needless and space consuming thread when you could have been out doing chores, helping people that actually need it, or learning to play the Theremin.

[Paul A. Kaiser]

I've got #3!

Has to be after work tomorrow though! It's 12:53 gotta go to bed!

[rsanford]

Ooh! Gots another one!
But this time we're NOt looking for Scripture folks! No... This one involves the people who say Jesus never existed at all. And since the Bible is just a "collection of stories and fairy tales" We obviously need a different source just to prove His very existnce even as a person.
I recall hearing that He was mentioned in other writings/records at the time, Anyone have any non-Scriptural evidence to Jesus in human form?

[Paul A. Kaiser]

Ran out of time tonight... Putting together videos of yesterday's outreach to Yuba College.

I did remember this post I did from a few years back on the purpose of the Law. Figured it would be helpful and would encourage others to use the Blog as a resource. After almost 3 yrs of blogging we have a great deal of information that might already be covered...

reformedevangelist.com/?p=177

I will post more but looks like tomorrow!

[rsanford]

Wait... You did a outreach at Yuba yesturday (Wednsday) ?!?!? I missed it somehow?! @.@ Unless you mean today, Thursday...then ofcourse I missed it Cuz I wasn't there... ^.^;

Gona read the link now, thanks.

[j3frea]

Okay for #1 I would affirm your statement; we don't die and "shuffle about" around here...

Hebrews 9:27
And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment

To further answer this question, the person who thinks s/he sees ghosts could just be schizophrenic (seeing people who aren't there...) but more in line with what you had in mind: since,

2 Corinthians 11:14
No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

He an obviously, then, masquerade as whatever he likes if God in His sovereignty will allow Satan to appear good...

Is that adequate?

#2:
I don't think that there is any evidence in the Bible that God created life anywhere other than on earth so my explanation for aliens would be quite similar to what I wrote for #1. The other thing I would mention is that I think there are a lot more people who are willing to lie about having seen aliens than would lie about seeing ghosts...

#3:
Absolutely, man is "total depraved" which means that we have no ability outside of the special, or "saving", grace of God to come to Him.

Psalm 14:1-3
The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; There is no one who does good. The LORD has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men To see if there are any who understand, Who seek after God. They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one.

The problem is that because God is infinitely holy and perfect, we must meet that same standard. This means that we have no hope of salvation

Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Romans 3:26
... so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Now, more to your question of why,

Romans 9:14-23
What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH." So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory.

Just read that text - I vote; inspired writers over my drivel!

[in case you care: I use the NASB]

[rsanford]

Neat, Thanks j3frea!
Those looks really great.

[Paul A. Kaiser]

I forgot you are in the area!

Would love to meet you if I haven't already!

Here is a link to the post: reformedevangelist.com/?p=984

[rsanford]

Thanks!(I even saw me in the video! =D )
I look forward to seeing you guys on campus.

Still pondering any other questions that may arise, Hmm...
#5 What would be a good response to a Catholic who adamantly holds up Mary and prays to her instead of Jesus?

Still lookin for an answer to #4 too people. *Snaps fingers* pick up the pace!
Kidding. I do appreciate you both for responding and helping me, and also thanks to anyone else who chimes in. :->

[Paul A. Kaiser]

Brother RC....

#4 is a good one for you!

[muleslax]

Human laws are put on earth for people to follow by other people knowing they will be broken; and still many people break them and go to jail. But there's no savior for doing jail time, lol.

[Ryan Dozier]

Atheist Dr. McCormick states "But let’s consider what reasons we might have to thinking that the book [the Bible] contains the words of God. A temptation would be to point to the book itself and the claims that it contains about the book coming from God. But we can all see the flagrant circularity of that view: Why do I believe that the Bible is the word of God? Because the Bible says it is. And why do I believe that there is a God? Because the Bible says that there is." This claim just stated is clearly an example of an atheists prejudice towards the Bible. Atheists treat the Bible like any other ordinary book, but they neglect the fact the Bible claims to be the very Words of God:

“All Scripture ( clearly identified as the Old and New Testament) is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work..” 2 Timothy 3:17-17 ESV

Atheists have a bias towards the Bible because they believe God does not exist, and miracles are impossible, thus according to their worldview the Bible cannot be what it claims to be the very Word of God. But as a Christians we must exploit this bias and ask for justification (or reasons) for such beliefs.

As Christians our epistemology (theory of knowledge) is founded on God and His Word, so we believe the Bible is the Word of God because God says it in the Bible. Now atheists will charge Christians with the fallacy of circular reasoning (begging the question) as quoted, but Christians must point out that everyone commits this fallacy when it comes to epistemology. For example, if an atheists final authority at deciding what is true and what is false is himself he too is committing the fallacy. We must declare that if God testifies of himself (in special revelation specifically the Bible) or says something through the means of men, we would have to believe it on his authority because there is no higher. Thus God’s Word is self authenticating in other words “ if God says it that settles it.” For if Christians tried to prove the Bible to be God’s Word by science that would be the ultimate authority and standard of truth not God. Furthermore, we believe the Bible is the Word of God because to every believer God reveals this to them by the illumination of the Holy Spirit, but obviously non-Christian will scoff at this, however, it is true.


Atheists often claim there is no evidence to prove that Jesus was even a real historical figure. This is a clear prejudice against the Bible because what is the New Testament? As Dr. Greg Bahnsen remarks:

“I have even heard some people mouth the radical opinion that "we have no literary or historical basis for believing that Jesus of Nazareth actually ever lived"! Can you spot the obvious indications of prejudice here? Such a criticism simply takes it for granted that the Bible itself should not be taken in any way as a literary source of historical information -- contrary to the general practice of even unbelieving historians of the ancient world. Moreover, such criticism does not show familiarity with the secular allusions to Jesus in ancient literature -- such as the reference by the Roman historian Tacitus to "Christus" who suffered "the extreme penalty ... at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate" (Annals 15.44), or the reference by the Jewish historian Josephus to James "the brother of Jesus, who is called Christ" (Antiquities 20:9), etc. Criticism like this usually ends up telling us more about the critic (e.g., his prejudices, what he has not been reading) than about the object of his criticism.” (http://www.cmfnow.com/articles/pa101.htm)

[rsanford]

Awesome, thanks for the answer man. ;D

This is fun! Too bad I don't have awesome BiblioBabble to give to all of you... Eh Time will come!

Curses! I had two, count them TWO!!!11 Questions earlier today... Accursed LOG calculations in class drove them straight out of mine brain meats. @.o

OH YES! I recall! (You don't know this, but there's about 5 minutes between my "brain meats" and this)
Hokay: Where in the Bible does it talk baout Satan being cast from heaven and the war in heaven? I know it is mentioned in Revelation, but is that the only place?

Also: Which was created first? Angels or Humans?

Another also: Did angels once have free will, (Explaining Satans ability to rebel) and are they now without free will as punishment for Satans actions? Or did they never have free will/ still have it?

A third also but not an also related to the first two: How does one respond to someone whos view is that: though the Bible may be Divinly inspired, it was still written by Humans, and said Divine inspiration was interpreted, BY Humans, and thus subject to biases etc?

Thanks for all the answers you guys have been giving me. It's nice to have someplace to go so I don't have to put effort into thought at all.



Additional: My biggest enemy is going space crazy through loneliness. The only thing that helps me maintain my slender grip on reality is the friendship I share with my collection of singing potatoes.

[j3frea]

Satan's fall:
You should be able to do a google search and find where Bible talks about Satan's fall. Sorry, I don't know offhand

Order of Creation:
When the angels were created is a bit of a debate amongst creationists but I think it's fair to say that man was created last and, therefore, angels were created before man.

Angels and free will:
I am not an expert on this topic either but as far as I understand it, angels had free will and fell, they still have free will but unlike us they have no way of reconciliation to God and so they cannot get back to God.

Bible interpretations:
Firstly, if God has taken the time to inspire a book, surely He would also ensure that it is preserved and interpreted correctly?
Secondly, that is why we have a consistent approach to interpreting the Bible - so that we understand it as it was written not shoving in our own biases.
Also, that sort of question generally comes from someone who is not really searching - s/he's just attacking the Christian worldview. How can you reinterpret "It is appointed unto a man once to die and then the judgement" and "The wages of sin is death"? Moreover, even if many people have misinterpreted it (which has happened - look at the prosperity gospel for example), if I am right you had best examine my view and be sure I'm wrong before you casually reject it with a statement like "lot's of people have misunderstood the Bible...".

[Calvins_Kid]

Question: "How, why, and when did Satan fall from heaven?"

Answer: Satan’s fall from heaven is described in Isaiah 14:12-14 and Ezekiel 28:12-18. While these two passages are referring specifically to the king of Babylon and the king of Tyre, they also reference the spiritual power that was behind those kings - Satan. These passages describe why Satan fell, but they do not specifically say when the fall occurred. What we do know is this: the angels were created before the earth (Job 38:4-7). Satan fell before he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden (Genesis 3:1-14). Satan’s fall, therefore, must have occurred somewhere after the time the angels were created and before he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. Whether Satan’s fall occurred a few minutes, hours, or days before he tempted Adam and Eve in the garden, Scripture does not specifically say.

www.gotquestions.org/Satan-fall.html (URL not associated with RttT)