Post by steve on Apr 6, 2009 0:52:04 GMT -5
Ok, so I've taken a bit of a look into some key points that I've noticed and I have some questions and refutations:
1. The word of God is infallible.
Please explain to me how God's word is infallible when in Timmothy 2 3:16 the Bible states, "{3:16} All scripture [is] given by inspiration
of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for
correction, for instruction in righteousness"
If all scripture is given by inspiration of God and can be corrected, how is it that God's word can be corrected if everything he claims is supposed to be infallible? This is contradictory and self-refuting.
If someone is inspired by someone or something they feel is important to write essays, dialogues, etc. the following example would be something like this:
If I take a look at an ocean and I decide to write lyrics of a song to sing on guitar about the ocean expressing what I believe, see, understand, and interpret about that ocean, it is not the ocean that is writing the song. The ocean is the driving force behind the reason why I write about it because I acknowledge its pulchritude and would like to share it with others.
The same goes with God. If someone is inspired by what they think God is or a particular attribute that they have attached to God, it is not God who writes the paper, it is the individual who used God as the driving force to write about Him.
2. Would God order killings, kill, discrimination of people with "defects, approval of killings, executions of vulnerable and physically unarmed people? Would Jesus kill children? If you say that you trust and believe in the word of God and God's word is objective how is any of this justified by objective philosophical reasoning? This might be long, but I must point out the verses that project these issues.
"And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle." (Exodus 12:29)
"And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for [there was] not a house where [there was] not one dead. (Exodus 12:30)
"Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the young girls
who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." (Moses - Numbers 31:17)
"And do ye abide without the camp seven days: whosoever
hath killed any person, and whosoever hath touched any
slain, purify [both] yourselves and your captives on the third
day, and on the seventh day" (Numbers 31:19)
"And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city we left none to remain:" (Deuteronomy 2:33-34)
"And the LORD said unto me, 'Fear him not: for I will deliver him, and all his people, and his land, into thy hand; and thou shalt do unto him as thou didst unto Sihon king of the Amorites, which dwelt at Heshbon'.......And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city."(Deuteronomy 3:2-6)
"This is what the LORD says: Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both
man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass ....' And Saul ... utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword."(1 Samuel 15:3,7-8)
"And Nathan departed unto his house. And the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick........ And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died........." (2 Samuel 12:15-18)
"And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them." (2 Kings 2:23-24)
"Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished...... Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children." (Isaiah 13:15-18)
"Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities....... For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts....." (Isaiah 14:21-22)
"And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and
the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them." (Jeremiah 13:14)
"The hands of the pitiful women have sodden their own children: they were their meat in the destruction of the daughter of my people. The Lord hath accomplished his fury; he hath poured out his fierce anger, and hath kindled a fire in Zion, and it hath devoured the foundations thereof." (Lamentations 4:10-11)
"And the Lord said unto him,....... And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house." (Ezekiel 9:4-6)
"Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works." (Jesus - Revelation 2:22-23)
"O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be,
that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones." (Psalms 137:8-9)
"The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open." (Hosea 13:16)
"Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished." (Isaiah 13:15,16)
"Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare
children." (Isaiah 13:18)
"I am the LORD your God, ...... And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat." (Leviticus 26:13,29)
"And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy
sons and of thy daughters, which the LORD thy God hath given thee,
in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee:.............. And toward her young one that cometh out from between her feet, and toward her children which she shall bear: for she shall eat them for want of all things secretly in the siege and straitness, wherewith thine enemy shall distress thee in thy gates." (Deuteronomy 28:53-57)
"Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD,..... And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they shall eat every one of the flesh of his friend in the siege and straitness, wherewith their enemies, and they that seek their lives, shall straiten them." (Jeremiah 19:6-9)
"Therefore fathers shall eat their sons in the midst of you and sons
shall eat their fathers.......I will send famine and wild beasts against you and they shall rob you of your children; pestilence and blood shall pass through you; and I will bring a sword upon you. I, the Lord, have spoken." (Ezekiel 5:10, 17)
"The hands of the pitiful women have sodden their own children: they were their meat in the destruction of the daughter of my people. The Lord hath accomplished his fury; he hath poured out his fierce anger, and hath kindled a fire in Zion, and it hath devoured the foundations thereof." (Lamentations 4:10-11)
"The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have
rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open." (Hosea 13:16)
"At that time Menahem, starting out from Tirzah, attacked Tiphsah and everyone in the city and its vicinity, because they refused to open their gates. He sacked Tiphsah and ripped open all the pregnant women." (2 Kings 15:16)
"So the LORD sent pestilence upon Israel: and there fell of Israel
seventy thousand men." (1 Chronicles 21:14)
Exodus 32:27-29
27 Then he said to them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says:`Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.'"
28 The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died.
29 Then Moses said, "You have been set apart to the LORD today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day."
Judges 11:29-39
29 Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah. He crossed Gilead and Manasseh, passed through Mizpah of Gilead, and from there he advanced against the Ammonites.
30 And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD: "If you give the Ammonites into my hands,
31 whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the LORD's, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering."
32 Then Jephthah went over to fight the Ammonites, and the LORD gave them into his hands.
33 He devastated twenty towns from Aroer to the vicinity of Minnith, as far as Abel Keramim. Thus Israel subdued Ammon.
34 When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of tambourines! She was an only child. Except for her he had neither son nor daughter.
35 When he saw her, he tore his clothes and cried, "Oh! My daughter! You have made me miserable and wretched, because I have made a vow to the LORD that I cannot break."
36 "My father," she replied, "you have given your word to the LORD. Do to me just as you promised, now that the LORD has avenged you of your enemies, the Ammonites.
37 But grant me this one request," she said. "Give me two months to roam the hills and weep with my friends, because I will never marry."
38 "You may go," he said. And he let her go for two months. She and the girls went into the hills and wept because she would never marry.
39 After the two months, she returned to her father and he did to her as he had vowed. And she was a virgin. From this comes the Israelite custom
“Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces, even the dung of your solemn feasts; and one shall take you away with it.” (Malachi 2:3)
"And the LORD said unto Moses, 'Take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the LORD against the sun, that the fierce anger of the LORD may be turned away from Israel.'" (Numbers 25:4)
"The men of Judah captured another ten thousand (men) alive and took them to the top of the rock and threw them down from the top of the rock; and they were all dashed to pieces." (2 Chronicles 25:12)
Leviticus 21:16-21
16 The LORD said to Moses,
17 "Say to Aaron: `For the generations to come none of your descendants who has a defect may come near to offer the food of his God.
18 No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed;
19 no man with a crippled foot or hand,
20 or who is hunchbacked or dwarfed, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles.
21
No descendant of Aaron the priest who has any defect is to come near to present the offerings made to the LORD by fire. He has a defect; he must not come near to offer the food of his God.
For the verses that discuss discrimination this seems very subjective. If the word of God is absolutely infallible, just, and is the truth, and normally people are condemned for performing such actions as stated above, how in the world is God just and possesses good intentions in his heart when he condemns others for this and performs these actions Himself? Again this is another contradiction that is very hypocritical and doesn't seem to be backed by any objective reasoning at all. To me if I'm considering the Evangelist Christian point of view (the Bible is the word of God) , all of these verses tell me that the God in the Bible as well as the people who wrote the scriptures are no less barbaric than any other human being willing to commit similar acts.
1. The word of God is infallible.
Please explain to me how God's word is infallible when in Timmothy 2 3:16 the Bible states, "{3:16} All scripture [is] given by inspiration
of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for
correction, for instruction in righteousness"
If all scripture is given by inspiration of God and can be corrected, how is it that God's word can be corrected if everything he claims is supposed to be infallible? This is contradictory and self-refuting.
If someone is inspired by someone or something they feel is important to write essays, dialogues, etc. the following example would be something like this:
If I take a look at an ocean and I decide to write lyrics of a song to sing on guitar about the ocean expressing what I believe, see, understand, and interpret about that ocean, it is not the ocean that is writing the song. The ocean is the driving force behind the reason why I write about it because I acknowledge its pulchritude and would like to share it with others.
The same goes with God. If someone is inspired by what they think God is or a particular attribute that they have attached to God, it is not God who writes the paper, it is the individual who used God as the driving force to write about Him.
2. Would God order killings, kill, discrimination of people with "defects, approval of killings, executions of vulnerable and physically unarmed people? Would Jesus kill children? If you say that you trust and believe in the word of God and God's word is objective how is any of this justified by objective philosophical reasoning? This might be long, but I must point out the verses that project these issues.
"And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle." (Exodus 12:29)
"And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for [there was] not a house where [there was] not one dead. (Exodus 12:30)
"Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the young girls
who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." (Moses - Numbers 31:17)
"And do ye abide without the camp seven days: whosoever
hath killed any person, and whosoever hath touched any
slain, purify [both] yourselves and your captives on the third
day, and on the seventh day" (Numbers 31:19)
"And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city we left none to remain:" (Deuteronomy 2:33-34)
"And the LORD said unto me, 'Fear him not: for I will deliver him, and all his people, and his land, into thy hand; and thou shalt do unto him as thou didst unto Sihon king of the Amorites, which dwelt at Heshbon'.......And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city."(Deuteronomy 3:2-6)
"This is what the LORD says: Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both
man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass ....' And Saul ... utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword."(1 Samuel 15:3,7-8)
"And Nathan departed unto his house. And the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick........ And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died........." (2 Samuel 12:15-18)
"And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them." (2 Kings 2:23-24)
"Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished...... Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children." (Isaiah 13:15-18)
"Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities....... For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts....." (Isaiah 14:21-22)
"And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and
the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them." (Jeremiah 13:14)
"The hands of the pitiful women have sodden their own children: they were their meat in the destruction of the daughter of my people. The Lord hath accomplished his fury; he hath poured out his fierce anger, and hath kindled a fire in Zion, and it hath devoured the foundations thereof." (Lamentations 4:10-11)
"And the Lord said unto him,....... And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house." (Ezekiel 9:4-6)
"Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works." (Jesus - Revelation 2:22-23)
"O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be,
that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones." (Psalms 137:8-9)
"The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open." (Hosea 13:16)
"Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished." (Isaiah 13:15,16)
"Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare
children." (Isaiah 13:18)
"I am the LORD your God, ...... And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat." (Leviticus 26:13,29)
"And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy
sons and of thy daughters, which the LORD thy God hath given thee,
in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee:.............. And toward her young one that cometh out from between her feet, and toward her children which she shall bear: for she shall eat them for want of all things secretly in the siege and straitness, wherewith thine enemy shall distress thee in thy gates." (Deuteronomy 28:53-57)
"Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD,..... And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they shall eat every one of the flesh of his friend in the siege and straitness, wherewith their enemies, and they that seek their lives, shall straiten them." (Jeremiah 19:6-9)
"Therefore fathers shall eat their sons in the midst of you and sons
shall eat their fathers.......I will send famine and wild beasts against you and they shall rob you of your children; pestilence and blood shall pass through you; and I will bring a sword upon you. I, the Lord, have spoken." (Ezekiel 5:10, 17)
"The hands of the pitiful women have sodden their own children: they were their meat in the destruction of the daughter of my people. The Lord hath accomplished his fury; he hath poured out his fierce anger, and hath kindled a fire in Zion, and it hath devoured the foundations thereof." (Lamentations 4:10-11)
"The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have
rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open." (Hosea 13:16)
"At that time Menahem, starting out from Tirzah, attacked Tiphsah and everyone in the city and its vicinity, because they refused to open their gates. He sacked Tiphsah and ripped open all the pregnant women." (2 Kings 15:16)
"So the LORD sent pestilence upon Israel: and there fell of Israel
seventy thousand men." (1 Chronicles 21:14)
Exodus 32:27-29
27 Then he said to them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says:`Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.'"
28 The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died.
29 Then Moses said, "You have been set apart to the LORD today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day."
Judges 11:29-39
29 Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah. He crossed Gilead and Manasseh, passed through Mizpah of Gilead, and from there he advanced against the Ammonites.
30 And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD: "If you give the Ammonites into my hands,
31 whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the LORD's, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering."
32 Then Jephthah went over to fight the Ammonites, and the LORD gave them into his hands.
33 He devastated twenty towns from Aroer to the vicinity of Minnith, as far as Abel Keramim. Thus Israel subdued Ammon.
34 When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of tambourines! She was an only child. Except for her he had neither son nor daughter.
35 When he saw her, he tore his clothes and cried, "Oh! My daughter! You have made me miserable and wretched, because I have made a vow to the LORD that I cannot break."
36 "My father," she replied, "you have given your word to the LORD. Do to me just as you promised, now that the LORD has avenged you of your enemies, the Ammonites.
37 But grant me this one request," she said. "Give me two months to roam the hills and weep with my friends, because I will never marry."
38 "You may go," he said. And he let her go for two months. She and the girls went into the hills and wept because she would never marry.
39 After the two months, she returned to her father and he did to her as he had vowed. And she was a virgin. From this comes the Israelite custom
“Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces, even the dung of your solemn feasts; and one shall take you away with it.” (Malachi 2:3)
"And the LORD said unto Moses, 'Take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the LORD against the sun, that the fierce anger of the LORD may be turned away from Israel.'" (Numbers 25:4)
"The men of Judah captured another ten thousand (men) alive and took them to the top of the rock and threw them down from the top of the rock; and they were all dashed to pieces." (2 Chronicles 25:12)
Leviticus 21:16-21
16 The LORD said to Moses,
17 "Say to Aaron: `For the generations to come none of your descendants who has a defect may come near to offer the food of his God.
18 No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed;
19 no man with a crippled foot or hand,
20 or who is hunchbacked or dwarfed, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles.
21
No descendant of Aaron the priest who has any defect is to come near to present the offerings made to the LORD by fire. He has a defect; he must not come near to offer the food of his God.
For the verses that discuss discrimination this seems very subjective. If the word of God is absolutely infallible, just, and is the truth, and normally people are condemned for performing such actions as stated above, how in the world is God just and possesses good intentions in his heart when he condemns others for this and performs these actions Himself? Again this is another contradiction that is very hypocritical and doesn't seem to be backed by any objective reasoning at all. To me if I'm considering the Evangelist Christian point of view (the Bible is the word of God) , all of these verses tell me that the God in the Bible as well as the people who wrote the scriptures are no less barbaric than any other human being willing to commit similar acts.