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Post by Ryan Dozier on Feb 15, 2009 21:10:37 GMT -5
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drakim
Full Member
Two hands working do more than a thousand hands clasped in prayer
Posts: 177
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Post by drakim on Feb 16, 2009 18:44:34 GMT -5
Well, my first reaction was kinda bad seeing that the very introduction on the page seemed to be written in contempt of one of the debaters, hardly something that gives me a feeling of trusting the source as completely unbiased, but the guy then says that the debate is only modified in regards to removing unrelated introductions and typos, so I guess it's okay. Still, it would have been more professional should the author NOT start by bad mouthing his opponent even before we are allowed to see what the debate is about. From what I gather, the debate is about what we could call absolute knoledge. If we are trusting our senses to learn things, then how do we know that what is correct and what is not correct? I believe we already debated this in another thread, so I won't go into that here. If you want me to point out a winner, I'd have to say Vincent makes his case the strongest. To be honest, I don't like this Derek guy at all, he seems to be unable to grasp some concepts, and instead of trying to improve upon his situation, instead tries to drag the debate back to familiar ground. |
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Post by Paul A. Kaiser on Feb 16, 2009 22:34:08 GMT -5
Very Good and an honest assesment... Yes Chueng can be kind of abrasive right out the gate I guess that is why Brother RC enjoys him so much... He says all the things Ryan is afraid to say!  |
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drakim
Full Member
Two hands working do more than a thousand hands clasped in prayer
Posts: 177
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Post by drakim on Feb 17, 2009 8:38:37 GMT -5
Very Good and an honest assesment... Yes Chueng can be kind of abrasive right out the gate I guess that is why Brother RC enjoys him so much... He says all the things Ryan is afraid to say! I think such an attitude is overly negative. I mean, it's not very Christ like, is it? I've always had respect for Christians who instead of bashing and yelling at people to come to Christ, live by example and show some of the love they claim God is about. All this person does it give me an impression that his viewpoint has to be defended by mudding his opponents. |
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Post by Paul A. Kaiser on Feb 17, 2009 15:08:54 GMT -5
I think such an attitude is overly negative. I mean, it's not very Christ like, is it? I've always had respect for Christians who instead of bashing and yelling at people to come to Christ, live by example and show some of the love they claim God is about. You will have to be more precise in showing where he was "not Christ like" and "overly negative"? This is the problem I have with your assertion: Living by example doesn't convert anyone. Yes, we are to let our good works be seen before men but this is to Glorify God. I just don't see where in his introduction he was being overly negative? Help me out? |
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drakim
Full Member
Two hands working do more than a thousand hands clasped in prayer
Posts: 177
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Post by drakim on Feb 17, 2009 17:31:07 GMT -5
I think such an attitude is overly negative. I mean, it's not very Christ like, is it? I've always had respect for Christians who instead of bashing and yelling at people to come to Christ, live by example and show some of the love they claim God is about. You will have to be more precise in showing where he was "not Christ like" and "overly negative"? This is the problem I have with your assertion: Living by example doesn't convert anyone. Yes, we are to let our good works be seen before men but this is to Glorify God. I just don't see where in his introduction he was being overly negative? Help me out? You can't see where in his introduction where he is overly negative? How about this: This seems about as respectful as calling Christians Christ-tards or something like that. I don't think anything, absolutely anything, can be gained from being negative and rude to the people you are talking/discussing/debating with. Do you think Derek can read this and learn something? Or is he just going to be bitter? The whole debate, in my opinion, was fruitless because one part was quite simply not on par with the other part, and instead of helping, the higher part decided to be arrogant and smug about the weakness of the lesser part. Personally, I think very little of people who think like this. Vincent acts like his opponent is a pest from the start, showing no respect and just in general doing his best to make the whole ordeal so fruitless and pointless that his oppoent would rather forget about the whole debate than continue. And all this to "without appearing to be afraid of him" as if watching over his image was first priority. If there ever was something that is not Christ-like, then this in my opinion fits it perfectly. Christ, from the image I got of him, was somebody who used much time on things like parables to help all people understand, not just the elite. What he would most definitely never do is drive lesser people away by to "disable" them by being as bothersome and impossible as, well, possible. |
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Post by Paul A. Kaiser on Feb 17, 2009 18:52:47 GMT -5
Now I see where you are coming from...  Although I do understand your point I think that the debate was very profitable to any and all who read it. I would assume it also caused Derek to reconsider his argumentation in the future. And in regards to your appeal to Christ-Likeness: The example of "parables" that you use is a common misconception that many including well meaning Christians make. Christ did not speak in parables in an effort to "take the hay down from the loft" so to speak (i.e. make His teaching more understandable ) on the contrary He did the very opposite in using parables. They were used so the unbelieving would not perceive them and that the prophesy against them would be fulfilled. In other places in scripture we see the use of strong words as well: Now some in our day and age may say that if a Christian was to speak like that we would be "unloving, unkind, and un-Christlike". Although if we look at Scripture we will see that those are the very words of Christ. How about The Baptist John? Now, I am not endorsing "Christian Name Calling" or Christians being overtly offensive but in some cases we can see where calling a duck a duck is merited and even by example by Christ and His Apostles and Prophets. Again some may find Cheung abrasive but I think it one would be reaching to call Him un-Christlike (although we cannot judge the intentions of his heart in doing so). Now if you wanted to say he was using Ad Homenim attack. That is a better argument - although he did do well to refute him in his assertions. |
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drakim
Full Member
Two hands working do more than a thousand hands clasped in prayer
Posts: 177
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Post by drakim on Feb 17, 2009 21:58:43 GMT -5
Although I do understand your point I think that the debate was very profitable to any and all who read it. I would assume it also caused Derek to reconsider his argumentation in the future. Personally, I think the opposite. Derek most likely got "burned" and got pretty mad, so reconsidering and learning is going to be last priority. If I told you that you are an idiot for saying something, would you get angry back at me or try to learn from my words? I think the former is the common human response. We do not take the teachings of a hostile teacher. I can see your part of the argument too, and to be honest, I wasn't really prepared to make a strong case for my argument. It was more some quick comments I said without much deep thinking. |
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