Post by drakim on Jan 11, 2009 12:06:41 GMT -5
Now, before I start this thread, understand that I'm not calling Christians liars in any way, shape or form.
It's just that, during my years of discussing and debating on the net, I've seen some pretty big acts of dishonestly with the ones who I debate, who tends to be Christian, specifically Creationists. Note that since I don't debate people who accept evolution as often, my selection is biased and it might simply be my own perception of the sitaution.
But there is one thing that keeps bothering me. Because, all the Christians I have asked, and I mean all, without a single exception, have said to me that one must never lie to archive ones goals. To bring somebody to Christ by lying is despicable and they would never do something like that.
But yet, It's if I daily see arguments which are either dishonest or outright lying. I'll show you an example.
On this page:
communities.canada.com/vancouversun/blogs/thesearch/archive/2009/01/03/no-apologies-allowed-producer-defends-anti-darwin-movie.aspx
This comment:
The problem here is that as a worker of a genetics research lab, this person should obviously know that it's humans who have 46 chromosomes, and that the great apes had 48. He said the opposite. But is it a big deal, even for a genetics researcher? Did he just mistype the numbers?
The problem here is that his main claim has an even more hilarious mistake:
...but in truth, no one knows how a population with 48 chromosomes can end up as a population with 46 chromosomes. [numbers fixed]
(just a side note, it's more normal to talk about chromosome pairs instead of chromosomes, so I'll be doing that from this point onwards)
And this is just an hilarious claim. You know why? Because exactly this, the transformation from 24 chromosome pairs to 23 chromosome pairs is used as evidence for evolution.
How? Because the theory goes that two of the chromosome pairs merged into one pair, resulting in humans having one less chromosome pair than the great apes. And behold, when we look at one of the pairs of human chromosomes, it looks a lot like the result of two chromosomes that have merged. (meaning, great apes have 24 normal chromosome pairs, while humans have 22 normal chromosome pairs plus one chromosome pair that looks like two chromosome pairs only stuck together.)
You see, each chromosome pair has these things called telomeres at the top and bottom. However, this particular chromosome pair has telomeres stuck right in the dead center in addition to the top and bottom, as if two chromosomes had been merged together.
Oh, and behold. As we study this strange chromosome pair, we have found out that the bottom part of the chromosome pair that is below the center of telomeres in humans, matches perfectly with the extra chromosome pair that the great apes had.
So there is a perfectly clear theory, with lots of nice evidence, as to why humans have less chromosomes than the great apes. This thread isn't really here for arguing about evolution. You might disagree with my reasoning or conclusions. Maybe God has his reason for making the human chromosome look that way. My point is only that from the evolution point of view, this is not a problem at all. Biologists have no trouble explaining this phenomena.
But yet, this person, who claims to work at a genetics research lab is insisting that there is no good explanation. This is the kind of stuff you would find in your textbook if you were studying to work with genetics. by his own admission, this person is a ID/Creationists, and as I have demonstrated, doesn't seem to mind lying to get people to reject evolution. Is this Christ's way?
---
Now, next. The second law of thermodynamics. It's said by numerous Creationists to prove the evolution isn't possible. Whenever I read an article that talks about evolution, it's very common for me to see a comment about how the second law of thermodynamics prevents evolution from working.
There are also numerous websites that argues this argument.
www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-thermodynamics.html
www.aboundingjoy.com/2ndlaw-fs.html
www.tccsa.tc/articles/entropy_blick.html
It is simply, in general, a very often used argument. You can find it all over the net.
The only problem is that it's completely false. And it's really easy to find out.
The first hit on google for "evolution+second law of thermodynamics" brings you to a website which explains that this is not true at all. It's based on a missunderstanding on how the second law of thermodynamics works.
I short, it doesn't apply because the second law of thermodynamics only applies for closed systems. The fact is that the earth isn't a closed system. We have this big yellow blob of fire that our earth circles around, called the sun, which constantly bombards us with energy in the form of heat and sunlight.
There is no excuse of this ignorance. Everytime I see a Creationist use this argument, he instantly gets refuted by people who know better. But somehow, Creationists keeps using this argument. Perhaps in the hope that somebody might have not heard that this is an complete lie and fabrication?
It's so easy to find out! Just head over to the wikipedia article of the second law of thermodynamics, and it specifically mentions that it does not crash with the theory of evolution at all:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_law_of_thermodynamics
Say what you want, but there is no way in hades that Creationists all just somehow missed the memo, and constant refutations, and constant reminders, over all these years, that the argument is complete bogus. And yet I have the strong feeling I'll be seeing that argument for years to come. Why is that? Is that Christ's way of doing things?
---
Durring the famous Dover trial, where it was ruled that Intelligent Design does not qualify as science and is merely relabeled Creationism, Judge Jones (who is a conservative republican who regularly goes to church) wrote this:
After the trial, there were calls for the defendants accused of not presenting their case honestly to be put on trial for committing perjury. "Witnesses either testified inconsistently, or lied outright under oath on several occasions," Jones wrote. "The inescapable truth is that both [Alan] Bonsell and [William] Buckingham lied at their January 3, 2005 depositions. … Bonsell repeatedly failed to testify in a truthful manner. … Defendants have unceasingly attempted in vain to distance themselves from their own actions and statements, which culminated in repetitious, untruthful testimony." An editorial in the York Daily Record described their behaviour as both ironic and sinful, saying that the "unintelligent designers of this fiasco should not walk away unscathed".
Both of these were very devout Christians, but it appeared that they thought it was okay to lie in a courtroom, under oath, to promote their view. What's that bothersome commandment again about lying?
---
I could go on and on with these kinds of examples, but I won't, because it's kinda useless since I think you already understand my point. But, please realize that this is not an thread about evolution and if it's valid or not. This is a thread about dishonestly. I want to outright know why a subgroup of Christianity, namely Creationists, have such problems with dishonesty, considering that this crashes completely with the values of Christianity. I think we can all agree that Christianity doesn't teach that you should lie to get results. So why is it happening?
It's just that, during my years of discussing and debating on the net, I've seen some pretty big acts of dishonestly with the ones who I debate, who tends to be Christian, specifically Creationists. Note that since I don't debate people who accept evolution as often, my selection is biased and it might simply be my own perception of the sitaution.
But there is one thing that keeps bothering me. Because, all the Christians I have asked, and I mean all, without a single exception, have said to me that one must never lie to archive ones goals. To bring somebody to Christ by lying is despicable and they would never do something like that.
But yet, It's if I daily see arguments which are either dishonest or outright lying. I'll show you an example.
On this page:
communities.canada.com/vancouversun/blogs/thesearch/archive/2009/01/03/no-apologies-allowed-producer-defends-anti-darwin-movie.aspx
This comment:
I work in a genetics research lab and I can assure you... That if I mention that intelligent design by God is a possibility, I would get fired instantly. As reported in the movie, there is hyper-political correctness in the academic community. There is no mercy for dissenting views, especially on such fundamental issues like evolution. Everyone's on the same bandwagon, just like in Nazi Germany... Half of my lab probably thinks about intelligent design, but no one dares mention it. The irony is that, when pressed, even the brightest geneticist cannot explain how it is possible that chimpanzees and humans have different chromosomal counts, when both species originate from the same ancestor. They have a fancy word for it, "chromosomal rearrangement", but in truth, no one knows how a population with 46 chromosomes can end up as a population with 48 chromosomes.
The problem here is that as a worker of a genetics research lab, this person should obviously know that it's humans who have 46 chromosomes, and that the great apes had 48. He said the opposite. But is it a big deal, even for a genetics researcher? Did he just mistype the numbers?
The problem here is that his main claim has an even more hilarious mistake:
...but in truth, no one knows how a population with 48 chromosomes can end up as a population with 46 chromosomes. [numbers fixed]
(just a side note, it's more normal to talk about chromosome pairs instead of chromosomes, so I'll be doing that from this point onwards)
And this is just an hilarious claim. You know why? Because exactly this, the transformation from 24 chromosome pairs to 23 chromosome pairs is used as evidence for evolution.
How? Because the theory goes that two of the chromosome pairs merged into one pair, resulting in humans having one less chromosome pair than the great apes. And behold, when we look at one of the pairs of human chromosomes, it looks a lot like the result of two chromosomes that have merged. (meaning, great apes have 24 normal chromosome pairs, while humans have 22 normal chromosome pairs plus one chromosome pair that looks like two chromosome pairs only stuck together.)
You see, each chromosome pair has these things called telomeres at the top and bottom. However, this particular chromosome pair has telomeres stuck right in the dead center in addition to the top and bottom, as if two chromosomes had been merged together.
Oh, and behold. As we study this strange chromosome pair, we have found out that the bottom part of the chromosome pair that is below the center of telomeres in humans, matches perfectly with the extra chromosome pair that the great apes had.
So there is a perfectly clear theory, with lots of nice evidence, as to why humans have less chromosomes than the great apes. This thread isn't really here for arguing about evolution. You might disagree with my reasoning or conclusions. Maybe God has his reason for making the human chromosome look that way. My point is only that from the evolution point of view, this is not a problem at all. Biologists have no trouble explaining this phenomena.
But yet, this person, who claims to work at a genetics research lab is insisting that there is no good explanation. This is the kind of stuff you would find in your textbook if you were studying to work with genetics. by his own admission, this person is a ID/Creationists, and as I have demonstrated, doesn't seem to mind lying to get people to reject evolution. Is this Christ's way?
---
Now, next. The second law of thermodynamics. It's said by numerous Creationists to prove the evolution isn't possible. Whenever I read an article that talks about evolution, it's very common for me to see a comment about how the second law of thermodynamics prevents evolution from working.
There are also numerous websites that argues this argument.
www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-thermodynamics.html
www.aboundingjoy.com/2ndlaw-fs.html
www.tccsa.tc/articles/entropy_blick.html
It is simply, in general, a very often used argument. You can find it all over the net.
The only problem is that it's completely false. And it's really easy to find out.
The first hit on google for "evolution+second law of thermodynamics" brings you to a website which explains that this is not true at all. It's based on a missunderstanding on how the second law of thermodynamics works.
I short, it doesn't apply because the second law of thermodynamics only applies for closed systems. The fact is that the earth isn't a closed system. We have this big yellow blob of fire that our earth circles around, called the sun, which constantly bombards us with energy in the form of heat and sunlight.
There is no excuse of this ignorance. Everytime I see a Creationist use this argument, he instantly gets refuted by people who know better. But somehow, Creationists keeps using this argument. Perhaps in the hope that somebody might have not heard that this is an complete lie and fabrication?
It's so easy to find out! Just head over to the wikipedia article of the second law of thermodynamics, and it specifically mentions that it does not crash with the theory of evolution at all:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_law_of_thermodynamics
Say what you want, but there is no way in hades that Creationists all just somehow missed the memo, and constant refutations, and constant reminders, over all these years, that the argument is complete bogus. And yet I have the strong feeling I'll be seeing that argument for years to come. Why is that? Is that Christ's way of doing things?
---
Durring the famous Dover trial, where it was ruled that Intelligent Design does not qualify as science and is merely relabeled Creationism, Judge Jones (who is a conservative republican who regularly goes to church) wrote this:
After the trial, there were calls for the defendants accused of not presenting their case honestly to be put on trial for committing perjury. "Witnesses either testified inconsistently, or lied outright under oath on several occasions," Jones wrote. "The inescapable truth is that both [Alan] Bonsell and [William] Buckingham lied at their January 3, 2005 depositions. … Bonsell repeatedly failed to testify in a truthful manner. … Defendants have unceasingly attempted in vain to distance themselves from their own actions and statements, which culminated in repetitious, untruthful testimony." An editorial in the York Daily Record described their behaviour as both ironic and sinful, saying that the "unintelligent designers of this fiasco should not walk away unscathed".
Both of these were very devout Christians, but it appeared that they thought it was okay to lie in a courtroom, under oath, to promote their view. What's that bothersome commandment again about lying?
---
I could go on and on with these kinds of examples, but I won't, because it's kinda useless since I think you already understand my point. But, please realize that this is not an thread about evolution and if it's valid or not. This is a thread about dishonestly. I want to outright know why a subgroup of Christianity, namely Creationists, have such problems with dishonesty, considering that this crashes completely with the values of Christianity. I think we can all agree that Christianity doesn't teach that you should lie to get results. So why is it happening?
. The problem is; all that you have just said has absolutely no bearing on the claims that Christ made ± 2000 years ago. You will either perish in folly looking for various means to suppress the truth or you will, by God's grace, be regenerated and saved from the wrath you deserve.
