drakim
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Two hands working do more than a thousand hands clasped in prayer
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Post by drakim on Dec 17, 2008 9:15:46 GMT -5
The title says it all. Why is God the ultimate authority, and why does he continue to be in that position?
Is it because God himself decided that? (circular reasoning)
Or is it because God is the most powerful being? (might is right)
Or is it simply the way things are? (without-a-cause argument, something atheists gets accused of often)
What other reasons are there? What do you think?
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Post by Paul A. Kaiser on Dec 17, 2008 9:49:43 GMT -5
Drakim! You are all over the place but I am glad to see that the discussions here on this board are causing you to consider various and sundry questions regarding a biblical view of God... Looking forward to see where this one leads... Any takers? Brother RC?  |
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drakim
Full Member
Two hands working do more than a thousand hands clasped in prayer
Posts: 177
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Post by drakim on Dec 18, 2008 6:48:20 GMT -5
Drakim! You are all over the place but I am glad to see that the discussions here on this board are causing you to consider various and sundry questions regarding a biblical view of God... Looking forward to see where this one leads... Any takers? Brother RC? Hehehe, well, what can I say? I enjoy discussion and debate. |
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Post by Ryan Dozier on Dec 23, 2008 1:53:38 GMT -5
God is the Ultimate authority because of who He is GOD. This is not to say might is right because I am not saying just because God is the most powerful being it is this in conjunction with who and what God is.
God does not cease to be God. In fact if God stopped being God we would cease to exist because as the Bible proclaims:
“In Him [God] we live and move and exist…. (Acts 17:28)”
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drakim
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Post by drakim on Dec 23, 2008 14:41:03 GMT -5
God is the Ultimate authority because of who He is GOD. This is not to say might is right because I am not saying just because God is the most powerful being it is this in conjunction with who and what God is. God does not cease to be God. In fact if God stopped being God we would cease to exist because as the Bible proclaims: “In Him [God] we live and move and exist…. (Acts 17:28)” Okay, to rephrase then. Why is God God? Why does that particular Being have the position as God? Are there any other arguments than "that's just the way it is"? I mean, it's a very clear question when you think about it. Why is the king the king? Well, because he is the son of the previous king, who is the son of a previous king, who was a war lord who took control of the land. If there is truly no other answer than "God just is God, that's just how it is", then I don't see how that's diffrent from saying "Nothing exploded into the Big Bang, that's just how it is". Both explanations require you to simply accept that something is the way it is, without justification. |
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Post by Ryan Dozier on Jan 3, 2009 20:51:25 GMT -5
God is by nature: eternally self existent, sovereign, all-powerful, all-knowing, all-present, self-sufficient, personal, Triune, morally self-consistent with His attributes: Goodness, justice, Holiness, love, mercy. God is the creator of all things and definer of all things. All things derive from God and are defined by God. God providentially sustains all things. Thus God is the Ultimate authority.
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drakim
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Post by drakim on Jan 4, 2009 19:01:08 GMT -5
God is by nature: eternally self existent, sovereign, all-powerful, all-knowing, all-present, self-sufficient, personal, Triune, morally self-consistent with His attributes: Goodness, justice, Holiness, love, mercy. God is the creator of all things and definer of all things. All things derive from God and are defined by God. God providentially sustains all things. Thus God is the Ultimate authority. A long nice list, but the last point, "God is the Ultimate authority" does not follow. If I claim to be the ultimate athority instead of God, what ways do you have to figure out which one of us is correct? Are you simply going to go with "God is more powerful so it's definitly he who is right"? Might equals right? |
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Post by Ryan Dozier on Jan 6, 2009 23:32:41 GMT -5
Let me clarify. If you read the book of Genesis you will understand God created us to be dependent on Him especially in our thinking. As I believe I have demonstrated various times that apart from God it is impossible to prove anything. I have already stated God is the creator, sustainer, and definer of all things. And that all things derive from God and are defined by Him. Thus if God gives meaning to all things and creates us to be dependent on Him in all things (including our thinking) He is the Ultimate authority.
First off, I cannot even answer the question without presupposing God is the Ultimate authority. Logic and induction are only possible and meaningful from the Christian worldview. But to answer your question directly you are a man so you cannot be the Ultimate authority. In fact one of the problems that you have when you do not think dependently on God is this very issue. Why do you make decisions as if you were independent? Who made you the ultimate authority? Yourself? If so this is circular reasoning. The Scriptures say we become foolish in our thinking if we do not think dependently on God like vicious circular reasoning.
No!! But even if I did that does not defeat my position.
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drakim
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Post by drakim on Jan 7, 2009 10:51:55 GMT -5
Let me clarify. If you read the book of Genesis you will understand God created us to be dependent on Him especially in our thinking. As I believe I have demonstrated various times that apart from God it is impossible to prove anything. I have already stated God is the creator, sustainer, and definer of all things. And that all things derive from God and are defined by Him. Thus if God gives meaning to all things and creates us to be dependent on Him in all things (including our thinking) He is the Ultimate authority. This last line. How did this come to be true? Where did this law that "If everything depends on X, then X becomes the Ultimate Authority"? It appears to me to be simply a thing you have decided upon by yourself without any logical justifications. I mean, if I simply say, "If everything depends on X, then Y becomes the Ultimate Authority", when what do you have to refute me? They are both just things we randomly claim, without any base of either logic or evidence. All are saying is "That's just the way it is". I still don't think you have justified this claim. Who decided that you have to make decisions independently to be the ultimate authority? That's another statement that's just pulled out of nowhere. I can equally just claim that to be the ultimate authority, you need to have the nickname "Drakim", which God does not have, but I do. I'll just do as you do. I am the ultimate authority because I just snapped my fingers. (since these statements does need justifications). It would make God look rather like a dictator though. I certainly didn't vote for him. |
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Post by Paul A. Kaiser on Jan 8, 2009 2:08:25 GMT -5
You seem to completely miss the point. Actually I do think I know you better by now - really you just reject the point that we hold to the Scriptures, being the very Word of God, as the ultimate authority in life and practice.
We didn't just snap our fingers... We are persuaded by the absolute truth of Scripture (again you will supress that as well).
We hold that what the Bible says is true and right. Our justification is the Word of God and the truth that is revealed therein.
If we appealed to a higher authority than God, He would cease to be God since there would be an authority higher than him that we must appeal to to affirm His authority.
THERE IS NO HIGHER AUTHORITY IN WHICH TO TEST THE HIGHEST AUTHORITY.
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drakim
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Post by drakim on Jan 8, 2009 16:16:40 GMT -5
Exactly! So how do we establish which is the highest authority? Do we have any reason to believe God is the highest authority other than that he says he is? |
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Post by Paul A. Kaiser on Jan 8, 2009 23:59:42 GMT -5
You still miss the point...
By apealing to another authority to substantiate the authority of God causes him to no longer be the highest authority and He ceases to be God.
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drakim
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Post by drakim on Jan 9, 2009 9:59:49 GMT -5
You still miss the point... By apealing to another authority to substantiate the authority of God causes him to no longer be the highest authority and He ceases to be God. I think we are operating on diffrent definitions of God here. Although the God of Christianity is supposed to be the highest authority and such, there are many gods in folklore in various cultures, such as Thor or Tyr that are not omnipotent nor still the highest authority. Although you don't believe in them, we still use the English word God(s) to describe them, not "powerful beings". In short, the english word "God" doesn't require the God in question to be the highest authority. |
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Post by Paul A. Kaiser on Jan 10, 2009 10:30:14 GMT -5
I'm sorry.... Let it be known I am arguing for "God" proper.... The God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob... - Jehovah, El Shaddai, El Elyon, Elohim.... There is no other God beside him... The One True and Living God.... YHWY! The God that you will one day stand before and give an account to for every thought, word and deed and if not found in union with Christ you will be weighed and found wanting seperated and cut off in everlasting contempt. It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the Living God.... So now we know the term... |
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drakim
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Posts: 177
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Post by drakim on Jan 10, 2009 17:48:10 GMT -5
My point was that even if the God you are talking about lost something, like his omnipotence or ultimate authority, he would still be a God. Those things aren't requirements to be God.
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